topsoccer
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 12:51 AM |
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Quote:Originally posted by alextris
Quote:
Originally posted by topsoccer
Why did they do this? Seems this woud bring down the level of play. Teams that would be on the edge between 1 div and 2 div may choose to stay
down due to parents wanting wins. I don't think a team doing this would get any better playing teams they would run over. It wouldn't help teams
who should be in the top of 1 div to play a team who self promotes and does not give the top teams any comp. Maybe I am not getting the full picture.
Or maybe you don't know the rules. There is nothing in place now that mandates that a team that qualifies for a level play to accept its spot. This
rule has to do with allowing teams to choose to play in first division without qualifying.
That said, at least now you have to qualify before you can chose to play up. I know teams have chosen not to accept promotion but they had to at least
qualify before they could chose to play up. BTW you are right I don't know the rules, that is why I posted so someone could give input.
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Far Post
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 07:34 AM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
Also - don't lose sight of the fact that this change lays the groundwork for the expansion of U10 Academy to U11 and U12 and the possible elimination
of U11/U12 Classic. That was never mentioned in the meeting - but given that this proposal grew out of the DOCs - the dots are pretty easy to connect.
The expansion of the Academy program will be a big benefit to the larger clubs over time. The small associations that are currently competing in
Classic and Challenge don't have enough players to have a successful Academy program for the long haul.
Personally I believe NCYSA should refocus their efforts on Recreation soccer. If the numbers I am seeing in the triad area are any indication, NCYSA
programs are losing an increasing number of athletes to YMCAs and community recreation programs. If this trend continues, the player pool will get
smaller not larger and club finances will become a serious problem.
Anyone else seeing similar happenings in the Charlotte or Raleigh areas?
The secrecy of my work prevents me from knowing what I am doing.
-unknown (at least to me)
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FJames
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 08:22 AM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by Far Post
Personally I believe NCYSA should refocus their efforts on Recreation soccer. If the numbers I am seeing in the triad area are any indication, NCYSA
programs are losing an increasing number of athletes to YMCAs and community recreation programs. If this trend continues, the player pool will get
smaller not larger and club finances will become a serious problem.
Anyone else seeing similar happenings in the Charlotte or Raleigh areas?
I'm pretty sure that my daughter's Triad club has been growing at a double digit pace the last three or four years and that's without rec which was
just started last year. I know GUFC has been growing like crazy the last year or two as well.
I don't know if anyone's got the total number of kids playing Challenge and Classic in the Triad but I wouldn't be surprised what you're seeing is
kids leaving a club that's not giving them what they want for a club that is.
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:20 AM |
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Quote:Originally posted by FJames
Quote:
Originally posted by Far Post
Personally I believe NCYSA should refocus their efforts on Recreation soccer. If the numbers I am seeing in the triad area are any indication, NCYSA
programs are losing an increasing number of athletes to YMCAs and community recreation programs. If this trend continues, the player pool will get
smaller not larger and club finances will become a serious problem.
Anyone else seeing similar happenings in the Charlotte or Raleigh areas?
I'm pretty sure that my daughter's Triad club has been growing at a double digit pace the last three or four years and that's without rec which was
just started last year. I know GUFC has been growing like crazy the last year or two as well.
I don't know if anyone's got the total number of kids playing Challenge and Classic in the Triad but I wouldn't be surprised what you're seeing is
kids leaving a club that's not giving them what they want for a club that is.
Agreed - our club has seen significant growth every year. Having only started in 2002, we'll cross the 1000 player threshold for the first time this
year (includes Rec, Challenge, Classic). I don't believe Academy is going to be the huge draw everyone thinks it is. It's a choice. My daughter played
U10 Challenge this past year and it was fine - but then we're in TCL. Even without GYS, KSA, and such, there were plenty of solid teams to play
against. She developed, worked hard, and had a lot of fun.
The trick will be HOW any expansion is handled. I believe the assumption was that by getting Academy going, it would slowly wipe out Challenge at U10.
So they didn't have to specifically do it. But that hasn't seemed to happen. Instead, many leagues without academy (often by choice) started U9
development programs to help strengthen their U10 programs and beyond. So if academy is expanded to U11/U12 and that's it - I think you'll find some
clubs doing it, but many others refusing to and many many parents who flat out will not give up the perceived benefits of being on a team until U13.
If the bigger clubs that support academy choose to outright eliminate competitive soccer below U13 in favor of ONLY Academy, I think you will see a
MASSIVE flight to US Club. Most leagues already have dual affiliation. The downside is it will increase travel for some. But look at it this way. Out
of 90 or so leagues, only 20 are doing Academy and a number of those still have Challenge programs. If Academy remains a 'choice' - great. Do what you
believe is best. But if the pro Academy folks decide to force their will on everyone else - it could get ugly in a hurry.
One interesting thing - there was some significant skepticism expressed at the meeting about how we were way too worried about 'pressure to win'.
Pressure to win will always be there, etc. and fixing things that aren't broken isn't helping. So if stuff like this continues I think there may be a
backlash against everyone so worried about kids dealing with any pressure. Kids hate to lose - period. Problems arise from coaching, not the program.
Fix the coaches.
I'll finish off with this. The NCYSA sets guideline policy, but often encourages leagues to do what works for them within the overall state
guidelines. Just because the state eliminated P&R, doesn't mean your league has to.
Our current league policy for travel soccer stipulates P&R between all three levels Challenge, 2nd Div, and 1st Div. Just because the NCYSA eliminated
P&R doesn't mean we have to. Other leagues who disagree with the change should do the same. But make sure your policy is VERY clear. Ours needs some
significant updating to deal with mid season moves and our criteria were a bit off. But we'll fix that. In the end - that may help keep things sane.
But you have to stand behind the rules adopted to stand down a coach who just HAS to be 1st Div U13 so his borderline Rec team can make Premier.
This won't fix the problem across the board, but it'll help as more teams move to the level they should.
My biggest concern, believe it or not, is increased travel at 2nd Div, which is the division where having a Piedmont division helps a LOT. If so many
teams jump to Open, leaving just two divisions in 2nd Div, that will be a major step backwards as those are usually the teams who shouldn't be
travelling halfway across the state.
On The Pitch - Laugh with and at Soccer Dad as he navigates the perils of youth soccer.
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FJames
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:38 AM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptisteMy biggest concern, believe it or not, is increased travel
at 2nd Div, which is the division where having a Piedmont division helps a LOT. If so many teams jump to Open, leaving just two divisions in 2nd Div,
that will be a major step backwards as those are usually the teams who shouldn't be travelling halfway across the state.
That's exactly what happened for the girls last year in the first year of Open Classic at U11. There were only two second divisions in both the Fall
and the Spring. There were 5-6 teams in each second division. In the Fall there were two Open divisions, in the Spring there were three Open
divisions with 10-11 teams in each division.
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baptiste
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Mike Baptiste
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:58 AM |
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Quote:Originally posted by FJames
Quote:
Originally posted by baptisteMy biggest concern, believe it or not, is increased
travel at 2nd Div, which is the division where having a Piedmont division helps a LOT. If so many teams jump to Open, leaving just two divisions in
2nd Div, that will be a major step backwards as those are usually the teams who shouldn't be travelling halfway across the state.
That's exactly what happened for the girls last year in the first year of Open Classic at U11. There were only two second divisions in both the Fall
and the Spring. There were 5-6 teams in each second division. In the Fall there were two Open divisions, in the Spring there were three Open
divisions with 10-11 teams in each division.
I remember that - made me thankful my '96 Girls team was in Challenge at the time because that U11 Girls 2nd was just BAD. Not the teams - but how it
was laid out - 5-6 teams in a bracket, very few games, lots of travel. In U12, it was definitely better with 3 divisions of 11-12 teams.
I think the flexibility offered by this will probably minimize the problem in U11 (except maybe for the fall until leagues get realistic about their
teams), but it's just pushing it out until U13. U13 2nd Div is going to be pretty small with the same problems you describe and the Open division is
going to see a lot of teams getting hefty beat downs.
One proposal that was out there that I would have supported 100% was extending open selection through Fall U12. Then P&R to form the Spring U12
bracket, let the best teams fight it out in one last season of 8v8, then P&R for U13. That way teams changed significantly between U11/U12 or very
strong new teams could jump right into the fray of U12 Open if they wanted to. But that proposal never got discussed.
On The Pitch - Laugh with and at Soccer Dad as he navigates the perils of youth soccer.
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MGLparent
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 01:25 PM |
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If this rule were applied to the past fall season, you would have 1 second division of 8-9 teams and 3 open divisions of 12-13 teams on the girls
side. For boys, you would need 4 open divisions.
With 4 open divisions, I guess the top 3 teams from each division will make premier. Making those divisions will be interesting. Under the new rule,
which division you are in will basically ensure some teams of a premier spot. I am sure there will not be any politics in those decisions. I am sure
the same coaches that play only to win (at the expense of development) will make good honest decisions on which division their team should be
placed.
I suspect this will hinder some teams learning 11v11 but will help with their 1 touch game, playing a man down, playing left footed, etc.
I am truly worried that some kids are not going to have fun if you put restrictions on them in half the games but, maybe no one will be worried about
winning anymore and it will be okay to win 15 or 16 to nothing. (NOT)
Also it is possible you will have 40 teams that select open at u13 and 4 that select 2nd division. One of the 4 teams may be located in Charlotte, 1
in Raliegh, and the other 2 in the Piedmont. Make up those brackets. Or assume the coaches are more realistic and you end up with with 26 teams in
first. Do you have 13 teams per divisions in the spring and try to fit in 12 games (do not plan on any tournaments) or do you put 8 in one division
and only play 7 games then take half of that division the next year and put it in Premier.
This appears to me about clubs keeping kids, not development. Right now if you took the top 10 coaches for these age groups and ask them if they
thought the coaches that are the problem in todays environment are going to coach any different under the new rules, I bet not one of them would
"honestly" say they will.
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FJames
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 01:33 PM |
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The original proposal that was withdrawn had only two open divisions at U13. You played everyone once during the entire year. This would allow you
to have as many as 24 teams in each geographical division for a max of 23 games in league play over the course of the year.
To me that format would have been preferable to setting up a 3rd or 4th regional division.
[Edited on 12/7/08 by FJames]
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1CoolSport
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 07:43 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
Promotion and Relegation for U11 through U13 were eliminated effective Fall 2009. Team's can self select in U11, U12, and U13. U13 Spring Open results
will be used to form U14 Premiere and 1st divisions.
Results and Standings WILL BE PUBLISHED for U11 and U12 (they were anyway - but now it's official)
New Team Manager certification course to be taught during the show.
This is sad, very sad, so you can just choose to play in the highest division up through U13 Classic - just another step backwards but then again it
will help some clubs who rarely find themselves in first division at U13... they can tell the parents we'll play in the top division... 
What if every team wants to play open at U13 so they can have a shot at U14 1st D? What aret he guidelines here???
Glad to hear they are posting standings for u11 & u12... Maybe they can go in an update them for this fall since several U12 ages still are not
accurate... but then again, that does not matter since they can self select at U13...
Team Manager certification??? lol oh yea, "How to utilize your local bounty hunter to collect team dues 101" 
So back to my rant... If I understand this correctly, it does not matter where you finish this spring at U12... ? Even if you finish last place, you
can jump back in the U13 "open" division next fall and if you lose again, one more shot next spring... 
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ccfan
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 07:59 PM |
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I find the R3 criteria change interesting as well. You could have a year where the 2nd highest R3 team beats the 1st place Premier team in the
final 4 but then loses in the final. Unless NC gets 3 teams they would come back to Premier and the team they beat goes to R3.
R3PL promotion rules were also changed, effective Fall 2010 if passed at the AGM.
For U15 Boys/Girls and U16-U18 girls, the nomination criteria will be:
1) Highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
2) State Cup Champ
3) 1st place team from Premier division
4) State Cup Finalist
5) 2nd highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
6) 3rd Place State Cup Team
7) 4th Place State Cup Team
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baptiste
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Mike Baptiste
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a self serving parent coach that is all about the KIDS so long as they are his KIDS - or so I'm told - cept I don't coach my kids O.o
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 08:26 PM |
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I actually raised the issue with the state about the lag in standings and why we didn't accept the score if both teams entered matching scores - still
check the match report when it comes in, but don't hold it out of the standings until then - they were open to it.
As for the R3PL - the main reason for moving the #2 R3PL team farther down was it was felt that it was very hard to dislodge the #2 R3PL team, even if
they finished near the bottom of R3PL - so the thought was if they're good enough to stay, they can make the state cup finals
On The Pitch - Laugh with and at Soccer Dad as he navigates the perils of youth soccer.
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Fluke
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:02 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by Far Post
If the numbers I am seeing in the triad area are any indication, NCYSA programs are losing an increasing number of athletes to YMCAs and community
recreation programs. If this trend continues, the player pool will get smaller not larger and club finances will become a serious
problem.
Where are you getting your information and which club are you refferring to? GYSA? I ask because that is the only club I have even heard of that MIGHT
be losing numbers. For all I know their rec league might be getting bigger. Perhaps the YMCA's and others are picking up kids that never played
before. That would be a good thing IMO.
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alextris
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:40 PM |
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I've seen very little in the way of data-based analysis here. Don't hold your breath waiting for some.
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Fluke
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:48 PM |
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Mike,
Can you tell us some of the clubs that were for and against eliminating promotion / relegation when the vote came up?
Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
I actually raised the issue with the state about the lag in standings and why we didn't accept the score if both teams entered matching scores -
still check the match report when it comes in, but don't hold it out of the standings until then - they were open to it.
As for the R3PL - the main reason for moving the #2 R3PL team farther down was it was felt that it was very hard to dislodge the #2 R3PL team, even if
they finished near the bottom of R3PL - so the thought was if they're good enough to stay, they can make the state cup finals
Sorry, edited because I quoted the wrong passage, original question still stands though.
[Edited on 12/7/08 by Fluke]
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FJames
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:48 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by alextris
I've seen very little in the way of data-based analysis here. Don't hold your breath waiting for some.
Are you an opponent or a proponent of the changes?
Who are you looking for data from?
[Edited on 12/7/08 by FJames]
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asheborosoccerdad
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clay Showalter
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| posted on 12/7/08 at 10:58 PM |
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Quote:Originally posted by FJames
Quote:
Originally posted by alextris
I've seen very little in the way of data-based analysis here. Don't hold your breath waiting for some.
Are you an opponent or a proponent of the changes?
Who are you looking for data from?
[Edited on 12/7/08 by FJames]
i think he is talking about data on clubs losing players?
Stop living through you child and let them play.
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baptiste
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Mike Baptiste
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a self serving parent coach that is all about the KIDS so long as they are his KIDS - or so I'm told - cept I don't coach my kids O.o
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| posted on 12/8/08 at 06:59 AM |
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I don't recall exactly who voted for or against - but it was passed by a roll call, so when the minutes come out it should show who did and didn't
vote for it.
On The Pitch - Laugh with and at Soccer Dad as he navigates the perils of youth soccer.
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MGLparent
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| posted on 12/8/08 at 08:03 AM |
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The other issue with this new rule is that the spring of u13 does not just determine premier. It also decides first division. Open divisions at u11
do not have this issue. This means any team that wants a chance at playing 1st division or premier will have to play in the open division. This
almost garantees 3 divisions and makes 4 a real possibility on the boys side. There are currently 59 teams at u12 and 56 at u13 for boys. My bet is
no more than a few will not even want a change at first division.
This decision reminds me of ones made by the school system. Close the gap by pulling the top down instead of the bottom up.
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8s Dad
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| posted on 12/8/08 at 08:51 AM |
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This Stinks! U14 G Perm was already watered down to the point that the only way to play more than 2 or 3 quality games ment going to WAGS, CASL, AtL
CUP, Disney! and spending a lot of money. Why can't they promote the top teams instead of the bottom?
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Fluke
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| posted on 12/8/08 at 09:34 AM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
I don't recall exactly who voted for or against - but it was passed by a roll call, so when the minutes come out it should show who did and didn't
vote for it.
Any idea when the minutes will be posted and do you recall if the proposal passed by a large margin or just squeaked by? Just curious.
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