FJames
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 posted on 12/6/08 at 03:08 PM |
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Classic Council Meeting 12/6
Anyone know what passed and what didn't?
[Edited on 12/6/08 by FJames]
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 03:28 PM |
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Yup - here's the highlights....
Challenge Council passed the High School division. Basically teams of U15 through U18 players playing by normal 8v8 rules cept for a size 5 ball and
35 minute halves. Think the ref fees got set to U15/U16 pay rate.
Classic Council...
Elimination of U14 Premier was withdrawn because....
Promotion and Relegation for U11 through U13 were eliminated effective Fall 2009. Team's can self select in U11, U12, and U13. U13 Spring Open results
will be used to form U14 Premiere and 1st divisions.
R3PL promotion rules were also changed, effective Fall 2010 if passed at the AGM.
For U15 Boys/Girls and U16-U18 girls, the nomination criteria will be:
1) Highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
2) State Cup Champ
3) 1st place team from Premier division
4) State Cup Finalist
5) 2nd highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
6) 3rd Place State Cup Team
7) 4th Place State Cup Team
#6/#7 to be determined by a '3rd Place Match' held Sunday of Final Four weekend
Play ranges for Spring 09 are Feb 7th through April 12th (which is Easter)
U11/U12 can play through May 9th/10th.
Classic Festival is April 25th/26th in Asheville
President's Cup Prelim Weekends April 25/26 and May 2/3
USYS Cup Prelim Weekends May 2/3 and May 9/10
Challenge Festival May 2/3
Challenge Cup May 9/10
Final 4 weekend for all cups (Chal/Classic) May 16/17
Results and Standings WILL BE PUBLISHED for U11 and U12 (they were anyway - but now it's official)
Scheduling meeting is JANUARY 10/11 - that changed
Teams must have field assignments BEFORE the scheduling meeting.
Soccer Show this year looks to be fantastic - a LOT of sessions, lots of high profile presenters, huge difference from last year.
New Team Manager certification course to be taught during the show.
[Edited on 12/6/08 by baptiste]
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 03:37 PM |
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Also - 615 teams played Classic in the Fall of 2008. There are ~650 teams signed up for the Spring. If there are >39 teams in 2nd division for an age
group, there will be a Piedmont I and Piedmont II division in addition to East/West. Some age groups are getting VERY close to this.
Field registrations are due Friday Dec 12th - not much time.
Teams are expected to have their home schedules pretty much done - Date, time, fields, etc, by the scheduling meetings, which will now be 30 minutes
instead of one hour.
Also - if an association is confident their schedule is good to go, they can send a single league representative instead of having every team's
representative travel to Greensboro.
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FJames
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
Classic Council...
Elimination of U14 Premier was withdrawn because....
Promotion and Relegation for U11 through U13 were eliminated effective Fall 2009. Team's can self select in U11, U12, and U13. U13 Spring Open results
will be used to form U14 Premiere and 1st divisions.
[Edited on 12/6/08 by baptiste]
That is truly awful. Thanks for the update.
Any chance they're grandfathering the current U12's? 
[Edited on 12/6/08 by FJames]
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topsoccer
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 05:10 PM |
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Why did they do this? Seems this woud bring down the level of play. Teams that would be on the edge between 1 div and 2 div may choose to stay down
due to parents wanting wins. I don't think a team doing this would get any better playing teams they would run over. It wouldn't help teams who should
be in the top of 1 div to play a team who self promotes and does not give the top teams any comp. Maybe I am not getting the full picture.
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LegalEagle
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 05:12 PM |
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Quote:Originally posted by FJames
Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
Classic Council...
Elimination of U14 Premier was withdrawn because....
Promotion and Relegation for U11 through U13 were eliminated effective Fall 2009. Team's can self select in U11, U12, and U13. U13 Spring Open results
will be used to form U14 Premiere and 1st divisions.
[Edited on 12/6/08 by baptiste]
That is truly awful. Thanks for the update.
Any chance they're grandfathering the current U12's?
[Edited on 12/6/08 by FJames]
so much for my earlier claim that both of my kids were past this. Current U12s are grandfathered, in a sense - we do not have self selection for this
spring.
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alextris
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 05:15 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by topsoccer
Why did they do this? Seems this woud bring down the level of play. Teams that would be on the edge between 1 div and 2 div may choose to stay
down due to parents wanting wins. I don't think a team doing this would get any better playing teams they would run over. It wouldn't help teams
who should be in the top of 1 div to play a team who self promotes and does not give the top teams any comp. Maybe I am not getting the full picture.
Or maybe you don't know the rules. There is nothing in place now that mandates that a team that qualifies for a level play to accept its spot. This
rule has to do with allowing teams to choose to play in first division without qualifying.
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 05:22 PM |
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I can certainly see the benefit in allowing new or significantly changed teams to self select beyond U11. But I almost wonder if as part of this, they
should consider enforcing relegation to existing teams to ensure teams that refuse to move down don't remain in open when they shouldn't be there,
getting blown out match after match 8-0. I guess in the end this is going to require that the leagues really assess how they handle team placement.
Also - don't lose sight of the fact that this change lays the groundwork for the expansion of U10 Academy to U11 and U12 and the possible elimination
of U11/U12 Classic. That was never mentioned in the meeting - but given that this proposal grew out of the DOCs - the dots are pretty easy to connect.
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LegalEagle
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 05:33 PM |
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self selection for U13 should make tryouts more interesting than usual
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FJames
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 06:37 PM |
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Here's what I see......
Old system as I understand it at U13 had ten teams in the first division east and ten in the first division west. Top five from each made premier at
U14 The next five stayed in first division.
Under the new system if enough teams self select into open there will have to be more than two divisions. If the top teams in the state are not
divided fairly evenly geographically then teams that would not have made premier under the old system will make premier under the new system at the
expense of teams who are actually stronger.
So Charlotte, if you have four of the best five teams in the state too bad one of them will not be playing premier. If CASL has two or three very
strong teams there will only be room for one or possibly two other teams coming from the east.
This system effectively waters down ALL competition through Fall of U14.
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 06:45 PM |
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The new rules call for twelve teams to move to premiere, so top six from two open divisions or top four from three open divisions. So while what you
describe is true - three open divisions result in one less team from east/west, if there's two divisions, there will be one more.
I think that's probably the biggest issue - everyone will play open in U13 for a shot at premiere - not sure how that helps. Hopefully things will
even out a bit after fall U14 P&R
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FJames
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 07:15 PM |
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OK with 12 teams in premier you'll definitely have at least two teams that wouldn't have been strong enough to qualify under the old system and in all
likelihood probably three or more.
Under the current system with a ten team division the tenth team in the girls Premier went 0-8-1 with a negative 26 goal differential over nine games.
Why would you want to add at least two weaker teams?
There were only nine teams on the boys side. The eighth and ninth place teams both went 0-6-2 with negative 15 and negative 16 goal differentials.
Why would you want to add at least three weaker teams?
I believe in small sided games at the younger ages. It makes sense to me and I was onboard even when my team played in the first year of 6v6. This
proposal does not make sense to me at all. I just can't see how it helps the KIDS in any way.
[Edited on 12/6/08 by FJames]
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 07:42 PM |
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The proposal grew out of the promotion/relegation committee and was written up by Bill Furjanic I believe. I was just an observer - stuck around after
Challenge Council when our league rep couldn't make it.
Here is what was written on the proposal as the reasoning for the changes:
1) To reinforce the concept of player development at the younger age groups
2) Less travel
3) Retention of players would be greater for all associations
4) Create the environment for more quality teams playing against like opponents [note - this really puzzled me because I just foresee way too many
teams hanging in open when they really should be in 2nd or vice versa]
5) Recreate the environment at U13 where the players have the opportunity to adjust to 11v11 without undo pressure
6) Ensure through this process of placing the best teams in the Premier Division at U14
Not sure that clears much up, but I'm just the messenger 
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 07:47 PM |
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Also - the reasoning for 12 Premiere teams was once R3PL selected 2 teams, you'd be back down to ten in Premier. If they select 3, they'll ask the top
relegated team to move back up to Premier.
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FJames
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 09:12 PM |
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Quote:Originally posted by baptiste
The proposal grew out of the promotion/relegation committee and was written up by Bill Furjanic I believe. I was just an observer - stuck around
after Challenge Council when our league rep couldn't make it.
Here is what was written on the proposal as the reasoning for the changes:
1) To reinforce the concept of player development at the younger age groups
I fully expect the coaches who coach to win now to continue coaching to win. I don't expect this to improve things at
all.
2) Less travel
This will only happen if there are more than two open divisions. As I've pointed out above this would be bad for
competition. They must realize this I guess they don't care.
3) Retention of players would be greater for all associations
This might be good for CLUBS who are losing players but I don't see how it's a benefit to the kids. If this does cut
down on movement, and I'm skeptical that it will, it will mean that NC teams will be less competitive out of state. It also means that fewer kids
will be TRAINING with kids of similar ability. That is a huge negative in my opinion.
4) Create the environment for more quality teams playing against like opponents
I call BS on this one. Under no circumstances does this create more quality teams. It may or may not reduce the number of
quality teams. If there are more teams in Premier and/or there are more than two open divisions it will definitely prevent some strong teams from
playing one another. This proposal will create more mismatches not more games against like opponents.
5) Recreate the environment at U13 where the players have the opportunity to adjust to 11v11 without undo pressure
I accept that this would reduce pressure in the Fall when kids are adjusting to 11v11. Personally I don't think it's
worth the sacrifice of competition.
6) Ensure through this process of placing the best teams in the Premier Division at U14
The only way to ensure the strongest teams are in Premier is to have statewide open divisions prior to Premier. I don't
think that's necessary. In the current system the 6th-10th place teams in the West could be better than the 5th place team in the East, that wouldn't
get them into premier though. Every additional geographical division you set up makes it MORE likely that the best teams will NOT be in premier.
This proposal does not ensure the placement of the best teams into premier at U14, it makes it less likely and potentially impossible that the best
teams will all be in premier.
Not sure that clears much up, but I'm just the messenger
I know you're just the messenger and I appreciate the information.
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MESs Dad
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 09:23 PM |
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What I don't understand is when we have a system that is working and working very effectively, why do we need to change things.
I understand the arguments for/against. Our classic program is very strong at all levels and then there is challenge. Why constantly rework programs
that are working instead of investing more in helping them work even better?
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MESs Dad
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 09:24 PM |
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By investing more, I'm not strictly referring to money in this regard.
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Justrubbernecking
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 09:47 PM |
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Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
For U15 Boys/Girls and U16-U18 girls, the nomination criteria will be:
1) Highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
2) State Cup Champ
3) 1st place team from Premier division
4) State Cup Finalist
5) 2nd highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
6) 3rd Place State Cup Team
7) 4th Place State Cup Team
#6/#7 to be determined by a '3rd Place Match' held Sunday of Final Four weekend
[Edited on 12/6/08 by baptiste]
Does this go into effect for Fall 09?
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baptiste
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 09:54 PM |
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Quote:Originally posted by Justrubbernecking
Quote:
Originally posted by baptiste
For U15 Boys/Girls and U16-U18 girls, the nomination criteria will be:
1) Highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
2) State Cup Champ
3) 1st place team from Premier division
4) State Cup Finalist
5) 2nd highest NC team in previous year's R3PL East
6) 3rd Place State Cup Team
7) 4th Place State Cup Team
#6/#7 to be determined by a '3rd Place Match' held Sunday of Final Four weekend
[Edited on 12/6/08 by baptiste]
Does this go into effect for Fall 09?
Fall 2010, if it's approved by the board at the AGM
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jasd
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| posted on 12/6/08 at 11:24 PM |
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Quote:Originally posted by baptiste
5) Recreate the environment at U13 where the players have the opportunity to adjust to 11v11 without undo pressure
I accept that this would reduce pressure in the Fall when kids are adjusting to 11v11. Personally I don't think it's worth the sacrifice of
competition.
Not sure that clears much up, but I'm just the messenger
This is PC pablum for the masses. And as just one observer I know mine was just as distraught about losing a game at rec as she was at challenge,
second division and first division. Score or no score. Was tough on her, yeah, is she scarred by the experience, quite the opposite IMHO.
Teach them to win early, teach them there is a time to step on the throat of an opponent and a time to give them your hand.
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